12 replies to this topic

[PsiMoon314]

Hi Guys,

Sorry to have to bring this issue up once more.

On a clean Windows XP SP3 install, when installing updates via AP, the IE7 install will often fail to work correctly. The XP install has not been modified using nLite but does have the DriverPack.net drivers and is unattended. Otherwise it is a standard OEM install.

The symptoms of the issue are fairly straight forward in that attempting to use IE7 results in the browser starting to launch but failing. You might see a flash of the IE7 window but it quickly disappears.

You can manually reinstalled IE from the AP supplied installer manually and the browser will then run correctly.

One other test it to just install IE7, WMP11 and the WGA tools on their on on the same clean XP and the browser will then work.

Clearly something else that is installing within AP along with IE7 is causing this issue.

Could the installation order or the post IE7 updates being installed after the IE7 install itself be causing this problem?

Has anyone else seen this issue and have any ideas how to fix it?

Kind Regards

Simon

[Netizen]

I've found Max's suggestion to be true...

Install IE7 before running AP

also, one might want to install WMP11 separately as well




I think the problem is there are some IE6 patches being installed under Critical Updates, when selected in its entirety the first time. Those patches can't be installed in the same run that's installing IE7.

Same thing applies to WMP11

[Cristiano]

> Those patches can't be installed in the same run that's installing IE7
i do this several times a day. and it always worked ok. but:

Those patches can't be installed in the same run that's installing IE7

> IE7 results in the browser starting to launch but failing
the very first time that i saw this was when i saw an integrated version of IE7, that nlite did. you may not realize, but sometimes, oem versions of any OS may come with some updates to run. what if that version that you choosed to integrate those DriverPack.net drivers or even if this driverpack had IE7? nlite doesn't recognize it and tries to integrate those as well?

by the way: install IE7 before autopatcher saves just one thing: time. because autopatcher can't recognize if you are installing ie7 with ie6 updates, it will try to install the updates by date, meaning that until some point, your ie6 updates will work fine and will not be needed (because those updates are for ie6 and you are installing ie7). after some point, ie7 will install. then, the updates for ie6 will not work anymore, because ie6 updates do an check for system requeriments (in this case, IE6) and will not find those requeriments, skipping the instalatin

> Same thing applies to WMP11
same as above. and nlite needs several changes to integrate this one. also, if the serial fails for check, the OS isn't activated yet and this sort of issue, this one will not work

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[PsiMoon314]

Hi Guys,

It would seem then that the idea that AP would only been run once to get your system updated is a thing of the past. This was once one of the main reasons for using AP.

Perhaps I will go though my copy of AP and remove all of the IE6 updates and get rid of them as, frankly I don't need them and see if this improves this situation.

It's a shame that AP is not what it once was however I guess we need to move with the times and find or build something which does work correctly.

Regards

Simon

[Cristiano]

> AP would only been run once to get your system updated is a thing of the past
to be true, this belongs to past since several years ago, thanks microsoft. several of their updates requires that another update be in place before apply another update. just to give you an sample, we can't apply the updates for IE7 if IE7 isn't in place yet. the same thing with wmp11. for other updates, the issue is regarding to windows installer. several updates are now requiring windows installer 4.5 to be in place before those updates be applied. so, how can we do that without reboot? this issue is happening since several years ago and was reported even in our old forum at neowin, but just a few users (me included) had noticed that at that time. but now, more and more updates requires another round and now, more and more people are finally realizing that (you included). sorry, but we can't select updates for an thing that isn't in there yet. even if we remove the pre-req for the updates to IE7, to make easy for you, it will become harder to other people that still don't run IE7 (and just to give you an idea about, when IE7 arrived, i've lost an soft that i liked, but doesn't run in a system running ie7)

> I will go though my copy of AP and remove all of the IE6 updates and get rid of them as
that is an idea, but you are forgetting that you aren't alone at the universe and still there's users running IE6. those updates are in there for those guys. but you are partially right, we could have removed the ie6 updates since long ago, as long as wmp10 updates, since those are the current version of those softwares

> It's a shame that AP is not what it once was however I guess we need to move with the times and find or build something which does work correctly
that isn't a shame. a shame is that you toke at least 3 years to realize that in order to run autopatcher properly, you need to run it another time. i do it from several years from now, because i've realized that since long ago. and besides, you can even make an module to add autopatcher to runonce and it will run fine, just after reboot. pretty easy and painless. besides, after an well selected choices, you will have something like 14 updates remaining to install and less than 5 minutes. less than that, if you do certain modifications at the modules and/or disable system restore first

i'm deeply sorry pal, but you are complaining about an ancient situation that a lot of people around the globe has already realized (but you don't).

i'm sorry if i was rude about what i'm writing, but that is the true.

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[_def_x_]

I think this whole conversation is scary for those new to AutoPatcher, who may think it is OK to check off a bunch of updates and
hit the Go button and expect things to work out OK.

I don't know too many users (I'm not a tech, maybe they know differently) who install major components, one on top of the other,
along with their updates, in one fail swoop - single reboot.

I always install the latest major components, one at a time, reboot, then proceed to apply any updates - I'm not in a hurry and
prefer a stable machine. Also, if you should have problems it is much easier troubleshooting 1 install over multiple items.

If multiple versions of a given app can co-exist and are needed, I will install oldest to newest - 2.0, 3.0, 4.1 etc.

Quote

the idea that AP would only been run once to get your system updated is a thing of the past

I'm not sure this ever applied to everything included in an AutoPatcher package - not sure. What's true, AutoPatcher is much more
desirable over WU/MU for most users even if careful planning and a couple reboots are required - "They Are".

Quote

we need to move with the times and find or build something which does work correctly

AutoPatcher does work correctly for the intended purpose, but it has been explained that new methods of installation require a
more careful installation process. If you know of any program that would chain the multitude of "EXEs" like the items included in
the AutoPatcher packages - at the same time - one reboot, I would be very interested. I'm not saying it doesn't exist, I just don't
know the name.

Mike

[klymax]

I am a big fan of AutoPatcher - stopped using when M$ started talking about these installs not being supported, etc. Stumbled upon it a few weeks ago when I was doing a clean install and despite a few minor problems, I see myself as helping AP along rather than criticising - after all its free!

I did find that I had to run AP a few times - e.g. it would scan the system and not finding IE7 or WMP11 would not recommend certain updates. I suggest therefore that the AP team implement (if possible) more sub-menus such as that done for .NET:



As for support to earlier versions of various components or software, I suggest that the Update Script be split further.. for example, instead of having "AutoPatcher for Office 2003" you could have two items:

AutoPatcher for Office 2003 SP3
Service Pack 3 for Office 2003

That way, users do not have to download unnecessary files.

Lastly, I would suggest that users be able to click on the heading to resort the items in the update list so for example I would be able to focus on English items only.

[lazer53]

I think common sense would be to install components first, reboot, then run AP to install updates. (why would you waste time installing updates to IE6?).

I usually run AP, deselect all critical updates (that are selected by default) select IE7 & WMP 11 (and if I'm feeling lucky I'll select Windows installer 4.5) Reboot and run AP with all critical + non critical.

Let me know if you guys agree, I think installing IE7 while connected to the internet will IE7 will download and slipstream a few updates into IE7 install files (reducing the amount of updates needed to IE7 Gold)

Edited by lazer53, 17 February 2009 - 08:47 AM.

[Cristiano]

> I think installing IE7 while connected to the internet will IE7 will download and slipstream
no. first: the command switch that autopatcher chooses is this one: /passive /update-no /norestart . sometimes, some release maintainers change the /passive to /quiet, but the main thing is that /update-no , that does IE7 doesn't download anything and just install, because the whose idea is fully uploate a system in offline mode. second: the updates for ie7 us to be cumulative and, thanks to microsoft, they don't change the installer like firefox and others do, making you download the whole thing and then download the whole thing again to update it. just an idea about what i'm talking: IE7 himself has about 14,0 MB. IE7-WindowsXP-KB961260: 8,60 MB. also, at IE7 install, it tries to download KB890830, that is updated every single month and today it has about 9,01 MB. by the way: the updates for IE7 us to be cumulative

> I usually run AP
i did an customized modules, that set also critical all the required modules to match WU and install them in proper order. besides, autopatcher always install the updates according to the release date and the updates that requires windows installer 4.5 arrived only after a certain date. due that, if you select all the updates and also windows installer at once, when an update need that windows installer 4.5 be in there, it will be there. then, a single reboot and you just need select the missing updates (and my personal modules does that by default) and that it's done. but of course, despite i can sign my personal version, i don't do that and run it also unofficial, because i trust in my own job

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[Angelico_Payne]

Ok here's my 5 cents.

Yes you have to run AP at least 2 times, sometimes 3 times to have windows patched properly.
After some discusion, few moths back, when I noticed issues with this update practice, IE7 problems...and so on, I had to redirect my attention to more permanent solution.

So Cristiano is right, this is the reality, and you have to find the way to deal with it, its not an issue linked to AP its a Microsoft ###### up. Why they fail to periodicly produce new, fully patched versions of program like e.g. IE7, WMP11, i can not begin to imagine.

So I switched to nlite+AP solution, and that IS the only solution short of slipstreaming and integrating all required patches and programs into installation source.

This gives you only 1 or even no restart at all if you use AP via GuiRunOnce option in winnt.sif.

The only thing I had problem so far is installing and fully patching .NET framework, other is peace of cake.

No matter what, AP & AP team will allways have my fullest support and gratitude.

[PsiMoon314]

Hi Guys,

Some interesting suggestions and comments here and I apologies if I came off as criticizing the project. Chalk it up to frustration with a good project that needs more work. If the code for AP was open source I would look into do this myself!

However it seems we need to update AP to cope with multiple reboots and mandatory reboots (if that is now what is needed) to install all of the required modules without major parts failing to install correctly (e.g. IE 7).

Can we not work to update the AP code and modules to have additional features such as:

Dependencies: - Before I install this module, something else is needed first, can I chain the install dependencies or is a reboot needed between them?

Exclusions: - If I am installing this module then these other modules are irrelevant or not required e.g. If I select IE 7 then the IE 6 updates are not needed, or if I am installing WMP 11 then the WMP 9 and WMP 10 modules are not needed ect.

We could even support installing Service Packs this way, I already have a SP3 install module which works via RunOnce to install.

We can then use RunOnce to ensure that AP continues following a reboot to then install the remaining modules so that the whole process is unattended (or as unattended as possible).

Careful thought need to ensuring that modules are installed in the correct order (not just by date) so that WGA is installed before most other modules and that installs do not conflict, and .NET is installed when needed ect.

Frankly it sounds as if Cristiano has done a lot of the work for this already if the AP engine changes needed to support this can be done we would have a far better AP package at the end of it.

Kind Regards

Simon

[Cristiano]

> Dependencies
currently, there's not an option like this one

> If I select IE 7 then the IE 6 updates are not needed, or if I am installing WMP 11 then the WMP 9 and WMP 10 modules are not needed ect
there's 2 options that you can choose for that:
1 - the answer's file. you just do your selections once and, at run, autopatcher will ask you to run it (or you can do it by an shortcut also);
2 - if you do an proper selections for the modules, you will just require 2 reboots: one to install the first wave and another one to end the process

> Careful thought need to ensuring that modules are installed in the correct order (not just by date) so that WGA is installed before most other modules and that installs do not conflict, and .NET is installed when needed ect
first: wga is not needed to install any module. you know how i know that? just when i'm on hurry i choose to install this one (at the first wave). all the other times, i left it alone and just after run autopatcher, i go online straight to WU. it allows me 2 things: 1 - check if there's an new version for wga and 2 - check if all the updates are in place (and all they us to be). but wga i still needed for one thing: run WU. without it, no way.

also, an update released at 01 jan 2009 will not be required to an update released at 20 dec 2008. there's one issue with that: sometimes, some updates are released at the exact same date, but if they are installed in any order into the same date, they may fail to install. for KB958481, KB958483 and KB958484, there's even a warning about it at ms website. but if you just change the release date to another one for each one, one after another, it will fix the issue easily.

besides, do the module auto-select another thing without the knowledge of the user is wrong, even if done by the own benefit of the user. long, long time ago, when we was still at neowin, blaze suddenly thinked that wga was required to install ie7 and what he did? he set wga also an prereq for ie7. i'm not sure if you remember from the complains about what he did, but i remember about "autopatcher is silently installing things without the user knowledge" etc. when he was in charge of the enu script, he never changed that. if i'm not mistaken, was erik who removed that prereq. the worst thing: at that time, he put that prereq even at the transpacks, making some release maintainers think that this was really needed when, in fact, it isn't. it is so true that you may install all the updates (and they will work) and when you go online, the first thing in the morning that automatic updates will do is download wga, just to ensure that you are running an genuine windows, nothing else

> f the AP engine changes needed to support this can be done
yes, mostly of them can be done, but currently, only antonis has the code for autopatcher and he is not working on that anymore. besides, there's one huge issue: some of us are in fact programmers in some way, but or we don't have the proper time to fix apup or we don't have skills enough to that. so, yes, we are missing coders. for vb6 (if keep the current source code is required) or anything else, if developing from scratch

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